class balancing?

[VStar 0]

Hello,

I recently joined Destiny and made a Ramarl. Now I am lvl 110ish and I struggle to play Ult, which is a fairly new feeling coming from  Vanilla. So I checked out the new stats for each class that are posted right here: 

 

Usually I play a huney, but this time i went for a ramarl and that seemed to be a big mistake, especially for a new player. Why? Please check this chart I made to understand why the balancing (comparing the two classes) appears to be very lackluster: (.jpeg below)

 

As you can see with one single unit (immortal ability) the huney only needs 154 mats to be maxed out, while the ramarl needs a whopping 359. In Vanilla is was the other way around - the huney was hard to max and the ramarl was not. Why is that an issue? As a new player you don't have any mats, that's why balancing base stats is just as important as balancing the maximum stats. As you can see the ramarl only got 20 more points overall compared to Vanilla while the huney got 804!? more basepoints overall. So the experience is basically: ramarl is a pure vanilla char for everyone without mats (you can't feed 359 mats you would need anyways) while the huney was buffed to new grounds. I know that Vanilla didn't offer a good balancing and I like the effort of changing stats, but if these numbers I got from your google doc are the correct ones, there's no way I will continue playing ramarl. As I mentioned I struggle to play forest on ult and that doesn't make any sense to me. This is clearly a rebalancing issue.

 

[Magic 1506]

Keep in mind that ramarl can use 250 total materials while hunewearl can only use 150. This I think results in the biggest unfairness in levelstats distribution.

See while class power is pretty fairly balanced at level 200, the leveling experience is far from how we want it to be. The way we designed it was that at least ATP/ATA/LCK -or- ATP/ATA/MST could be maxed on 200 chars without units needed, which is possible on ramarl. But costs a ton of mats, and those 153 power materials make a world of difference.

So currently, non-maxed, 250 material classes are severely underpowered while leveling (and even at 200 if not somewhat maxed). The good news though is that at level 200, with a reasonable amount of mats used, ramarl does kick ass. Remember stats are not everything, we also got a whole lot of gear exclusive to rangers.

Anyways, here's some of the improvements which are planned for the near future:

• Increased level 200 stats for 250 material classes
• +50 max ATP for ramarl
• More linear progression of levelstats between levels
  (i.e. some levels you get 1 of a certain stat, some levels you get 5, and most classes get a significant power boost between levels 130-200, this also results in extra level unbalance)
• Faster and easier methods to obtain mats.

Do know that we appreciate (constructive) criticism and suggestions are always welcome and always read.

About the difference between ramarl and hunewearl:

You can't really compare hunter power with ranger power based on just stats, here. I'd suggest comparing ramarl to other rangers, instead of hunters (at least on Destiny). Because we completely revised the max stats based on class role. I suspect in vanilla pso, SEGA simply distributed a set of "stat points" between classes, but rangers had tons of leftover unspent points. I think that's why the vanilla rangers ended up with so much defenses, because they had to spent the leftover points somewhere. If that makes sense. On Destiny we wanted to widen the ranger/hunter gap and give hunters more of a melee role, which requires more power (especially hunewearl), more different kinds of endgame melee weapons and more defenses. Rangers on the other hand got their defenses stripped to give them more of a ranged/crowd control role instead of a tank (even though rangers also got a little ATP). Mainly since rangers can shoot from distance and have access to shot types. This for instance also means that hunters on this server will never get access to any exceptional ranged gear (and vice versa)

[VStar 0]

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Keep in mind that ramarl can use 250 total materials while hunewearl can only use 150. This I think results in the biggest unfairness in levelstats distribution.

This is just a bad excuse on your part. You raised the stats of a huney by over 800 points across all stats while the ramarl basically has vanilla stats. I am lvl 115 and still unable to play forest - a fact you completely ignored in your post - so how am I supposed to get the gear I need when everything drops on ultimate? You rebalanced ultimate, but failed to balance the base stats of my char. So while pretty much every class could easily play forest/caves to get some ultimate gear (vanilla), I am bound to play vhard until I reach lvl 200 or managed to find 250 mats to equalize that? A huney can max all her stats with just the 150 mats she can use, while you need to spend 359 on a ramarl to do so. She can only use 250 anyways so her max stats aren't even compareable to the huneys as you wont reach them without sacrificing more slots for statunits.

If you are talking about maxing only atp/ata/lck, I bet a huney could do that as soon as lvl 130 and once again she only needs about half the mats which is a huge factor as there's currently no way you could just farm the correct 250 mats in an eyeblink you would need for a ramarl. I know that the ramarl is a decent char on lvl 200 when fed all mats and gear, but that doesn't help me the slightest when lvling her without having the 250 mats at my disposal. You claim your server is truely balanced and that might be somewhat correct for lvl 200 chars plus perfect gear, but my experience  on your server is the exact opposite. I can hardly damage an enemy on ultimate and there's nothing I can do about that. I already have decent weapons and 3 god power units and that is basically all you can hope for when entering ultimate.

If you had raised the base atp of a ramarl by 200, she could now do ultimate just as good as a huney and you would still need all her 250 mats to max her out. It wouldn't make her any stronger in the long run (end game) so your main focus of balancing would be identical while the balancing around lvl 90-1XX would be significantly better. I am just wondering why a class should be able to use 250 mats (which are a pain to get) and still be at a disadvantage compared to a class who "just" needs 150. Your post didn't mention a valid reason for the bad base stats of my char and the problems I am now going through.

[Magic 1506]

You missed the point. I am actually agreeing with you about the leveling experience, and certain characters (including ramarl) being underpowered while leveling/progressing, and posted the changes we have planned. 

You on the other hand ignored my point that it's pointless to compare hunewearl to ramarl based on just stats. They have different uses. And hunewearl needed the buff, ramarl not so much. Even though we do have a 50 max ATP buff planned.

Edit: Maybe you can team up with others until you get strong enough? I'm sure people wouldn't mind running you through a couple CCAs.  

[VStar 0]

A huney needing the buff is purely subjective. Both performed well in solo or party play (vanilla) and both had no problem playing ult when it was available (lvl80+). On this server however the huney can do ult just fine, but as a ramarl I can't. Once again I agree the max stats were somewhat unbalanced in vanilla with classes like hucast outshine all other hunters. However you rebalanced ult enemies based on the new max stats and custom gear, but a new player has no access to them (same goes for mats - so stop telling me ramarl can use 250 because this doesn't concern the issue). So the only term that could describe the change from a good lvling experience with huney/ramarl to the one I am currently experiencing is bad rebalancing - because rebalancing characters includes all aspects of them (access to gear, utility, mats, base and max stats).

I am at a point where I literally can't progress the game by myself - an issue pretty much unheard of in vanilla. My attacks do almost no damage, so I am bound to grind vhard until I get either power mats or more lvls (more atp). I can't expect the best weapons to drop in vhard so that they could help me out. The only reason why I am at a standstill right now is the lack of atp and that could be fixed by adjusting the base stats of my ramarl and therefore create a somewhat real balance. The 50 max ATP buff you were talking about has no affect on this problem.

Teaming up with others is a no go for me at this point. I started here because I have achieved everything on other servers (vanilla/custom) and I wanted to start over. Character and gearing process is a huge part of motivation and would be completely destroyed by joining a lvl 200 game and getting carried (this was never needed in pso anyways). I want to play with others once I have achieved my personal goals like decent equipment and the ability to handle things on my own. Getting yourself carried because you are not up for the challenge is pretty pathetic and certainly not my cup of coffee (generally speaking), but I don't know if I really wanna torture myself anymore with vhard quests so I can overcome this rebalancing issue.

[Magic 1506]

Well, this is not vanilla. It's a challenge, and for other classes it's harder as well compared to vanilla or other servers. You have no knockdown, so when you get surrounded you're screwed bigtime, much more than elsewhere. The reason hunters have more ATP, DFP and EVP here is because on higher levels they HAVE to fight up close as opposed to rangers and forces.

Anyways so yeah, I will tell you again that I agree with you about ramarl (but I don't agree about it being the only class, some other classes have the same problem) and the issue will be addressed soon.

The +50 ATP buff mentioned is regarding "max" stats, to iron out a small power difference when comparing maxed chars. 

The actual fix for the leveling experience are the other 3 points I posted.

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• Increased level 200 stats for 250 material classes
• More linear progression of levelstats between levels
• Faster and easier methods to obtain mats.

Like I said, this doesn't only apply for ramarl. There are a few classes that are currently hard to level. Now if, after the implementation of all aforementioned changes, ramarl is still underpowered compared to others, we'll of course look into the subject further.

Regarding playing with others, I didn't mean it in a bad way, I just posted a solution for you for -right now- because in all fairness, the changes I mentioned won't be applied overnight. They are planned for a while now but are big changes and require intensive testing and maintenance, to make sure nothing bad happens to the character database. This requires time.

Here's some other things you could try to do for now:

- Play solo mode
- Play episode 2 dolmolm research on vhard (probably fastest XP)
- If you don't have a decent battle unit, hunt v101 or h/battle on ep4 vhard (1/390ish)
- Play with others but ask them to get characters around the same level as yourself

Either way, I think we're getting nowhere with this thread. I understand your point and we'll take your findings with us when we start the rebalancing of level stats. Locking topic.